Category: philosophy/religion topics
This post started out as a response to “why do you do it?” by SilverLightning. It took on a life of its own though, and is a bit long. That’s why I decided to make it a new post. It was written with that other post in mind, so it may make sense to read that one to put this one in perspective.
OK, let me start by saying I am a Christian. I offer no excuses or apologies for my beliefs. I finally took the time to read all the posts here and felt the need to respond. As I was reading, all sorts of eloquent thoughts kept running through my mind, but when I went to write them down they all fled. I do not claim to be an expert on Christianity, but I have done quite a bit of study on the subject. I hope that what I want to say comes through, even if my writing skills aren’t quite up to the task.
First of all, let me start by saying that I don’t think Christianity is a religion in the traditional sense of the word. If you think about other world religions, they are about what people do, or don’t do, to gain the attention or approval of their god. Other religions set out certain requirements necessary to have a relationship with God, whether that is praying at particular times or locations, eating or avoiding certain foods, or performing a multitude of other actions to gain blessings. Christianity differs in that God is the one who did what needed doing to bridge the gap between humankind and Himself.
In Christian teaching, we all are sinners. Each of us have lied, treated others poorly, or done something else that is less than perfect. We believe that Jesus Christ took the punishment for our sins, allowing us to have a close relationship with God. Now, whether you believe this or not, this is the Christian belief in a nutshell, and the basis on which the rest follows.
As I stated, Christianity differs from other religions. It’s not about doing anything, other than believing in Christ, to gain God’s approval. Unfortunately, many Christians approach God in this way, thinking it’s about what we need to do to please God. If anything, Christianity is, or at least should be, about relationships. Christianity is about our relationship with God, His relationship with us, and our relationships with one another.
Contrary to what many people think, God does not call us to convince others that He is real and actively present in this world. Many people, Christians and non-Christians alike, misunderstand this point. Yes, we are called to spread the word about Jesus, that is true, but it is up to God to convince people about this truth, not us.
Spreading the message about Christ is often a big problem with non-believers who feel another belief system is being forced upon them. Let me say something on both sides of this issue. To Christians, let me remind you that all we can do is tell people about Christ, or even better, show Christ in the way we live our lives. We can do nothing to change the minds of others, that is totally in God’s hands.
To non-Christians, let me explain why the push to get you to believe. If, for example, you were aware of a broken elevator, knowing that if someone entered they would plunge to their death, you would probably feel obligated to warn them of the danger. In a way, this is analogous to how Christians feel, wanting to warn others that they are in danger, danger of spending eternity in hell for their unbelief. Now, before you jump all over me about real verses perceived dangers, as I stated previously, I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind, I’m simply trying to explain the mindset behind why Christians feel the need to get others to believe in Christ.
Now, changing topics a bit, let me address the logic verses faith argument. It seems that many people who say they are atheists, believe in logic, and seem to be under the impression that Christians are not logical. Many seem to be laughing up their sleeves at the idea that anyone could believe in something as ridiculous as a supreme being who is omnipresent and omnipotent. I feel that I am a logical person. My background includes the study of many of the hard sciences and maths, including biology, chemistry, calculus and statistics. I say this not as a line on a resume, but instead to say that logic is an important part of my makeup.
Biblically speaking, “faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. Hebrews 11:1. That’s right, faith is believing in things that are not scientifically provable, but that does not mean that logic is thrown out the window. This is my own opinion, and I am not asking anyone to accept my conclusions, but I do believe that logic is being used.
I look at the world around me, from the smallest sub-atomic particles to the universe as a whole, and I’m amazed. How did these things come into existence, and not only exist, but to do so in such a way that there is order, and not complete absolute chaos? Scientifically speaking, many people accept the “Big Bang Theory,” and I’m not talking about the TV show, as an explanation for the creation of the universe. If we go back in time far enough, the universe would be seen to contract until there was a singularity point, a moment when nothing existed. Suddenly, an explosion occurs, and the universe, with all it now contains, comes into existence out of nothing. So, how logical is this thinking, after all, the first law of thermodynamics, also known as the law of conservation of matter, states that matter and energy can neither be created nor destroyed. This law is a fundamental principle of physics. To me, thinking that nothing suddenly became everything is less logical than thinking there was a guiding hand behind the creation of the universe.
OK, so what about those who say that if God exists, why is he letting the world go to hell, literally or figuratively, in a hand basket. Many non-believers ask why God isn’t fixing the problems around the world, problems such as war, famine, sickness, and all the other troubles that effect humankind. Many also add that they don’t want to follow a God who allows these things to happen if He does in fact have the power to correct them. Well, to the Christian, there is an answer to this dilemma; it’s just that the answer isn’t one that non-believers usually want to accept. There is a story that I like that to me sums up this question and the answer to it. It’s not original, but to me it puts a point on what we Christians believe.
A man went to a barbershop to have his hair and beard cut. He and the barber got into a conversation hitting on several topics. Suddenly, they touched on the subject of God. The barber said: "Look man, I don't believe that God exists." Tell me, if God exists, would there be so many sick people?
Would there be abandoned children? If God exists, there would be neither suffering nor pain. I can't think of loving a God who permits all of these things."
Not wanting to start an argument, the customer did not respond. The barber finished the haircut; the customer then paid and left the shop. Upon leaving the shop, the customer saw a man in the street with very long hair, dirty and unkempt. The customer reentered the barber shop and he said: "You know what? Barbers do not exist."
"How can you say they don't exist?" asked the surprised barber. "I am here and I am a barber. Why I just cut your hair!"
The customer said, "Barbers don't exist because if they did there would be no people with long hair and beard like that man who is outside."
"Ah, barbers do exist, what happens is that people do not come to me."
"Exactly!"- affirmed the customer. "That's the point! God does exist. What happens is people don't go to Him and do not look for Him.
OK, so you say, so what. As Christians, we do believe that God has the power, and is working to fix all the problems in the world. He wants each of us to turn to Him, to draw close to
I warned you that the post grew…lol.
OK, so you say, so what. As Christians, we do believe that God has the power, and is working to fix all the problems in the world. He wants each of us to turn to Him, to draw close to Him, thus getting back to Christianity being about relationships. It is in this closeness to God that Christians find the strength to deal with the problems of the world.
Is there a way to actually fix these problems, yes there is, but it is not a quick solution. The world will be fixed, according to Christian belief, when Jesus Christ returns.
So again I hear you groaning, saying you don’t believe this claptrap, and you’re tired of us pushing our beliefs on you. Remember, I’m not trying to convince you of anything, but simply trying to explain things from the Christian point of view. I will take this opportunity though to say something about many of the posts from those who are atheists, or are non-Christians. If you read many of these posts objectively, I think you will find a bit of reverse, maybe discrimination isn’t the right word, but there is a bit of arrogance and condescension that comes across. Many of the posters write that they just want to be left alone, not pushed, but then go on to trash our beliefs. Not all do this, but a good number of posts do. There is a lot of anger in the writings. Many of the atheists wrote with supposed knowledge of Christianity, and then scoffed at it. OK, I get it, you don’t believe, but you want us to respect your right not to believe while at the same time being completely disrespectful to those of us who do. This board is supposed to be a place where we can safely post our opinions. I may be wrong, but those people who were Christians, or who at least supported Christian beliefs, were respectful towards those who do not believe. On the other hand, as a Christian, I definitely felt under attack for my beliefs. There is a difference between sincerely asking why people do or believe certain things and jumping on them for those actions and beliefs. Yes, you do have a right to do this, but I’m wondering if this is the board for that.
Yes, everyone has the right to complain, and I do understand why those of you who have been accosted are upset. You are not alone in this, as I and my children have had similar experiences. I do propose that you not lump all Christians under the same umbrella though. Not all of us express our faith in this manner. Condensing Christian thoughts and beliefs into just a few sentences was not easy, and I know I left a lot out. I also know that I did not provide explanations for each issue that was raised. I tried to cover many of them though, and I am willing to do my best to answer whatever questions anyone has. I wouldn’t mind if this post became a question and answer board about Christianity. If you just want to rant or complain, I wish you wouldn’t do it here. However, if anyone does have sincere questions, I, or others, may be able to provide answers.
I can at least appreciate the way you carefully thought out and worded your posts. I still don't agree, and I still don't believe in a God, but I totally respect the fact that you made an attempt to explain the issues at hand.
I agree. I'm happily an atheist and will always remain so, but it's your life to live as you want.
that being said, I'd like to clarify something: when you say atheists feel there couldn't possibly be a god cause of bad people in the world, that's an incorrect assumption.
true atheists are such cause of what we understand about religions as a whole, not cause of what we don't. we're atheists cause of the liberation and absolute freedom it provides, along with the belief that sufficient evidence of a higher power doesn't exist.
Happy Heart,
I’m not sure about what you were mentioning. I don’t believe I said “atheists feel there couldn't possibly be a god cause of bad people in the world,” If I said anything like that, even indirectly, then I was just not clear in what I was saying. If it was in the section with the barber, I just cut and paste the story from an online site. The point there was that God exists; people just aren’t turning to Him.
If it was in another section that was what I wrote myself, I again apologize about being unclear. I was however responding to posts that did say that if God exists, the poster wonders why He isn’t doing anything about the troubles in the world. Other posters have come out and stated that God is actually causing the bad things that are happening. I never meant to imply that atheists hold their beliefs for simplistic reasons.
Also, though it’s difficult to get into here, there is another misconception about Christianity. When you understand it, you come to understand that Christianity is all about freedom.
1 Corinthians 6:12 "Everything is permissible for me" -- but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me" -- but I will not be mastered by anything.
I realize as an atheist that you don’t follow the teachings found in the Bible, but I put the scripture in for anyone, primarily for other Christians though, who may want to know on what I am basing my statement.
Again, I am not trying to convert anyone. All I would like to do is try and clear up any confusion that exists about Christianity to the best of my ability. I appreciate the feedback, and hope this remains a forum for cordial discussion and a polite exchange of ideas.
I can sum up my thoughts on this in two sentences. First, congratulations on being able to voice your opinions thoughtfully and politely. However, where are the omnipresent and omnipotent barbers?
Barbers have a shop, and everyone who goes into that shop, gets a haircut. That means that, for the sake of analogy, the shop is the barber's world. Now god has the entire world, and everyone in it is his children, ignoring the fact that we're all sleeping with each other, and thats kinda creepy, lets just point out that, since his shop is the entire world, everyone should get his own brand of lightning throwin' haircuts; which, I'm sure you'll agree, is not happening.
Barbers do not have the power, nor do they claim to have the power, to cut the hair of everyone in the world, and to be everywhere at once. You've never seen a barber shop sign that proclaimed, "Come see the omnipotent barber", no one claims that; except god.
Now, lets look at the fact that, in the story, he said that no one seeks god. Well, if God is everywhere, which is the definition of the word omnipresent, why would you have to seek him. If your a fish, in the ocean, its not hard to find the water; a limited analogy, I grant you, but it serves as a visual image.
I once read a great argument, that you will most likely disagree with. If god is omnibenevolent, (always good), and omnipotent, (all powerful), why does he not stop the wickedness that goes on in the world. Logic leads us to a handful of possibilities, either he can, but doesn't want to, can't but wants to, or he doesn't want to, and he couldn't even if he did.
Now, if he can, but doesn't want to, he is not omnibenevolent, because that is not always good. Good would be to stop the suffering and wickedness. If he can't, but wants to, he may be good, but he is not all powerful, otherwise he could stop it. If he can't, and wouldn't want to if he could, he is neither omnibenevolent, nor omnipotent.
Now, I can guess what some might say, "see, he can fix it, but you have to seek him first". To which I say, if he is all powerful, why does he have to be found first, why are their requirements on what he can and cannot do. A doctor can only heal you if you are in the same general area as the doctor in question. A doctor in new york, can't perform the heart transplant on the patient in los angeles, at least not yet. Thus, doctors are not omnipotent, and I don't know any that claim to be.
However, God does claim to be, but the logical evidence does not point to that conclusion, it points to the exact opposite. So some piece of the puzzle doesn't fit, perhaps you can tell me which one it is.
OK, you’ve given me a bit to respond to and I will do my best to express my thoughts. I guess I should start off by saying that, like your fish analogy, my barber analogy isn’t perfect. It’s often difficult to express something of a spiritual nature in physical terms. I will do my best here and I hope I’m able to get my thoughts across. Again, I’m not out to convert the world; I guess in reality, I’m just learning to express my beliefs in a cogent manner.
I think first of all that we have to clarify what I mean when I use the word “seek.” You are indeed right in that as a Christian I believe that God is everywhere. In my original post, after the end of the barber analogy, I said that people aren’t turning to God, and that is probably a more appropriate word in this case. By seek/turn to, I’m talking about asking God for help, guidance, etc, not just physically locating Him.
You then say “Barbers have a shop, and everyone who goes into that shop, gets a haircut,” and, “for the sake of analogy, the shop is the barber’s world.” A quick side note, I’m not quoting you to try and trip you up by playing word games or anything, but just trying to show you what I am referring to in my answer.
A person does not receive a haircut just because he is in a barber shop and the same holds true with God. To get a haircut you have to ask for it and then consent to it. God has given us freewill, that is, we have the choice whether to accept Him in our lives or not; thus the debate you and I are having at this point. God may be around, but He does not force Himself on anyone. To seek/turn to God, we have to ask Him and consent to Him.
You also bring up the argument about why God, if all powerful, doesn’t end the problems of the world. This point was addressed in my first post, though I may not have been clear, and I apologize about not being better able to express myself. To sum it up, and trying to sum up an entire belief system into just a few words doesn’t do it justice, I believe God is going to “fix” the world when Christ returns. The time we are living in is the time God is giving us to seek and find Him.
Also, let me address the omnibenevelont comment. I’m not sure if you have children or not, but this may be better understood if you do. I’ve raised three children, and there were many times that they would not have called me benevolent. In fact, at the time, they would have called me hard, mean, unfair, and/or a variety of other things. At the time, they did not understand that my actions were actually for their benefit. I had a better idea than they did about what life was going to be like, and I was trying to teach them. Sometimes the lessons they had to learn were tough, definitely not always easy. The old adage where the parent says, “This is going to hurt me more than it does you,” really does hold true. As a parent, I loved them, and did not want them hurting, but I had to do things, such as punishment, for their own good.
I say all that to lead to this; God is benevolent and loving, but we don’t always see that when we are going through the trials and tribulations of life. I am going to quote scripture again, not to try and convince anyone of my beliefs, but for anyone who is interested in knowing the basis for my reply.
Romans 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
You also said “Logic leads us to a handful of possibilities, either he can, but doesn't want to, can't but wants to, or he doesn't want to, and he couldn't even if he did.” You then said that a piece of the puzzle was missing. Your statement seemed to sum up all possibilities, but you left at least one major one out. How about this one; God is solving the problems of the world. In fact, to Christians, it’s already a done deal; we’re just waiting for the act to come to its culmination. I realize that you probably think this is lame, and that if God was all that, then He would fix things quickly. As a parent, I knew what was best for my children when they were young, and as our Father, I believe God knows what’s best and how to get there.
Let me finish this post with a thought to chew over. Again, let me stress, I believe what I believe, and I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind, that’s not my job. If an atheist is right, and I am wrong, when we die, then I’m not any worse off for my beliefs. On the other hand, if I am right, atheists are going to be worse off for their beliefs. If God does not exist, then there is no divine power to solve the problems of the world. If God does exist however, maybe He is giving more people time to come to Him, a wise parent.
while you aint trying to push up anyone's mind, even after several religious topics, almost with the same motivation or argument, why you're ranting it here? I can surely say it's a kind of preaching. or in indian terms, Injecting a banana.
believe what you believe. I don't care. but I hate people who always trying to influance their belief is correct. and all the others are about to go to the hell or whatever. threatening, eh?
Raaj.
Dinesh,
Well, I thought this was the safe haven board, but I guess I was wrong. I may come across as preaching, but that was not my intent, believe me or not. I do have to disagree with you about the ranting though. I don’t think I was ranting in the least.
One difference I see between us is that though I disagree with those who say they are atheist, I don’t hate any of them for their beliefs or for expressing those thoughts. You post, in this safe haven, that you hate “people who always trying to influence their belief,” but aren’t those who say they don’t believe in God doing the same? Aren’t they also proposing a view that they believe is correct?
I’m not sure why the anger in your post. No one forced you to read this, and the subject line wasn’t misleading. I even warned at the beginning of my first post that it was long.
Preaching? Maybe, but my intent was to explain some things that I thought were misconceptions. I don’t believe I threatened anyone with hell, or with any other threats for that matter. There is a theory called “the psychologist’s fallacy.” It roughly says that a psychologist has to be careful not to interject personal thoughts and motivations into a client, that is, prescribing personal motivations to explain the thoughts and actions of another. I don’t believe I have done the things you said I have, and I think that you are letting your own personal biases color what I actually said.
The difference between you as a parent, and god, is that you do not have the power to make everything safe for your children, so you must prepare them.
For an analogy, police officers wear bullet proof vests, because they cannot take all the bullets out of the hands of criminals. They cannot illiminate the threat, so they must protect against it. God, because he is all powerful, could easily take away the threat, but he hasn't, there is still suffering in the world.
So I am left with one other conclusion, God is testing us. I think, and this is just my opinion, that testing someone continuously to make sure you truly love them, is cruel. If I were in a relationship, and my significant other kept testing me, I'd leave the relationship.
the thing is, though, that you don't see us atheists (or anyone else for that matter) making topics such as this one. correct me if I'm wrong, Raaj, but I think that's the point you were trying to make.
Glenja, if you believed wholeheartedly in christianity, why do/would you need to justify that with scripture? seems to me that when one truly believes something, they're able to articulate it in their own words...not by saying, "scripture says", or, "the bible wants us to" (insert action here).
for example, when asked why I'm an atheist, I have no problem giving a straightforward answer. I don't say, "hold on a sec; let me pull out a book by Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens (famous atheists), and sit there thinking about it for a few minutes".
also, when you/other christians say they feel atheists are attacking them, I must disagree. what we're doing is simply sharing our perspective, which, I feel, religious people such as yourself can't handle.
Well, actually I do see atheists making topics like this. It was the post by SilverLightning that started this whole thing. I only started a new post instead of responding to his original post because my response became so long that I didn’t feel it fair to monopolize his original posting. He asked a question, and I provided an answer. Rather he, or anyone else agrees, I did no more than anyone else who posted; that is, I gave my opinion.
As far as justifying what I say with scripture, there are two basic reasons. As I pointed out when I used it, the reference was made primarily for other Christians. We believe, and I’m not asking you too do so, that the bible gives us instructions for life. I put the scripture to show other believers that my thoughts were in alignment with what God says.
Secondly, I do believe in what I say, but I’m not an authority. We believe, and again, I’m not asking you to but I’m just giving our perspective, that God is the final authority. Because of this, I put down what God said to show that I wasn’t just coming out of Christian left field.
Now I understand that you think that God doesn’t exist, so all Christian doctrine is coming from left field. I’m not putting it in my posts to try and change your, or anyone else’s mind. I’m putting it in for other Christians who read this and may wonder where I am coming from.
Also, you say that when asked why you are an atheist you have no problem giving a straight forward answer, not needing to turn to some outside source. I may be getting into things a bit more deeply than this board can allow, but I say that at some level you are. We all draw our thoughts and opinions from our experiences. Whether this is some type of formal training, such as school, or from life experiences that daily teach and mold us. I think that you being an atheist, or anyone else being who they are, is based on these formal and informal experiences that we all have.
I don’t have to turn to the bible to articulate my beliefs, but it is a part of my experience, and influences my thoughts. In fact, I only used scripture a couple of times. I also used Newton’s Law of Conservation of Energy, a secular counseling principle, the psychologist’s fallacy, and personal thoughts in presenting my beliefs. These posts have been long, and I know that when one part is being focused on, other parts are forgotten. If you go back and reread what I have written, I think you will see that what I believe doesn’t just come from scripture.
Finally, and I know you’re glad this post is drawing to a conclusion, I don’t know if all the posts are simply just showing their perspectives. I was accused of ranting, which I don’t think I’m doing. That’s not exactly just giving some perspectives on religious beliefs. In the other board, where this all started, Christian and other religious beliefs were being mocked and ridiculed. Here are just a few examples.
“that you know so very much about my life and beliefs and principles, that you feel the dire need to change them to perfectly match your dogma, and this
urge leads you to the belief, which you consider logical, that you should get down on your knees and murmur words to some guy who doesn't even have a name, in hopes that your dream will come true?”
““I love logic. I worship it. I will make people see it my way in public. After all, we must show some love to those who are logically challenged. puts hands on head of logically challenged and prays to the god of logic that they will one day see the light.”
“OMG, I love the last two posters!! thank you, thank you, thank you. sweet, logical people such as yourselves make my heart soar...unlike *clears throat* others that make me wanna puke my guts out.”
Now, maybe you don’t consider remarks like these to be an attack, and technically they may not be, but it’s not exactly just stating why you are an atheist. You may not agree with what I believe, no problem there, but you can’t tell me that I have in any way mocked you or what you believe.
So you say, it’s just a joke, lighten up. Well, I think I have a pretty good sense of humor, and if you read my profile, I think you will see it. I just don’t think this is the appropriate place for jokes at the expense of others.
Everyone is going to hell, or something of the sort according to someone's religion anyway, so I'm just going to live as I am, and when I die, whenever my time comes, I guess I'll find out who was right. An argument related to religion is like a debate about whether fruit or vegies are the better of the two food groups. Nobody will ever win, because everyone has an opinion about it, and the only fact about them is that they are both healthy in their own way. the same could be said for beliefs. Some find the belief in a God quite liberating, while others such as myself say the same about the disbelief in a God. In closing, I'm not here to prove why my point of view is better than yours. I'm here to live my life, and I'll respect everyone who is willing to peacefully co-exist, regardless of beliefs.
exactly my point.
oh, and one more thing: I don't, at all, consider the examples you listed to be "attacks".
in fact, some of them were things I said; that's simply how I feel. if you can't accept that others in the world are as passionate about our nonbelief as you are about your choice to believe, you don't have to interact with/read posts of that nature.
you constantly defend the fact you aren't trying to convert anyone; however, if you were truly secure in yourself, you wouldn't need to do so. you don't see ocean dream Jess, Cody, or myself saying, "I'm not trying to convert people to be atheist", do you?
for the record, I'm fully aware this comes across as harsh, but that's who I am. take it or leave it.
Safe Haven doesn't mean you won't encounter disagreement. It just means the discussion has to stay family friendly, and we can't attack each other. Some people are very quick to treat a disagreement as an attack, but when you're the one disagreeing, it's simply a disagreement? Hmm. I sense a double standard here.
Well, I guess we do have different standards when it comes to what we call attacks as opposed to the simple stating of opinions. I remained strictly focused on my beliefs, stating why I believe what I do. Most of you who disagreed with me did not extend that courtesy, making a variety of sarcastic remarks about beliefs that differed from your own. I made no such comments about your beliefs. There is no double standard on my part, I never asked anyone to agree with what I said. However, when you mock the beliefs of someone else, I’m not sure why you think they shouldn’t find it offensive.
Ocean Dream stated that she wasn’t here to prove that her point of view was better than mine. I don’t think I ever said that my beliefs were better than anyone else’s. I did try to explain why I believe as I do, but I never belittled the thoughts or beliefs of anyone else.
I may have overstated the “I’m not trying to convert anyone” remarks, but I felt it necessary at the time. I did not want to be accused of preaching my beliefs, but I was accused of that anyway. I’ve tried not to speak in generalities, but quite often we Christians are accused of trying to force our opinions on others when it is just a statement of what we believe. I was actually trying to respect your beliefs by stressing that I was not out to convert anyone. I believe I showed respect to those whose opinions differed from mine. I don’t think the same was done in return. If you think making sarcastic, snide comments about another’s beliefs is the same as just stating opinion, then that is something else we will have to agree to disagree on.
it is the same, cause it's part of my/the opinion of others. sorry you fail to understand that, but, it takes all kinds, I guess.
OK, I probably should just let this lie, but are you really saying that you can’t express your opinion without sarcasm? You’re unable, or unwilling, to have a discourse like that?
opinions are like assholes; everyone has 'em. regardless of whether or not you appreciate what I bring to the table, it is what it is (even if sarcasm is included). not everyone has a "tasteful" way of presenting things, as you seem to wish we all would.
also, being offended is a choice. while I may not agree with other's points of view, I can't say I ever get offended. so, more power to you in choosing to place much more value on my words than is necessary.
oh, and for the record, I use sarcasm sparingly...but this kind of discussion is perfect for it, at times.
Glenja, I think you have misunderstood Christianity. Simply believing in God is not enough. You also have to follow God's instructions, just as you have to do if you're a Jew or a Muslim.
It is true that Christians are all sinners, however this is an acknowledgement that humans are not perfect, not a licence to deliberately commit more sins.
This leads me to my final point, which is a response to what you and other Christians say about God fixing the world. This attitude of waiting for God to solve problems is wrong. If all Christians had to do was leave everything to God, there wouldn't be any instructions in the Bible.
If we assume that after we die, we're either going to Heaven or Hell, then surely all problems and suffering are tests. God wants to know how we'll respond to the problems and suffering we experience, and we see other people experiencing. Some people may respond to what I have said with horrible scenarios and try to demonise me and those who agree with me by presenting those horrible scenarios in the context of what I have said, but I respond to them by saying that the Bible was intended to be followed by people no matter what they or others are experiencing. It is not to be disregarded by adherents while they react to something horrible, they are to follow it at all times.
Finally, I am not a follower of any of the major world religions. I do however, seek good guidance when I read religious texts such as the Bible and the Koran.
Senior,
I don’t claim to be an expert on Christianity, but I do at least understand the basic tenants. The only real requirement to be a Christian is to accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. I wrote in an earlier post that there was more to Christianity than I was saying, but for the sake of space, I was generalizing. I never claimed that there was a license to commit sin, but the scripture I quoted was directly from the bible.
Warning: theological lesson. If you do not believe in the following, that is your choice, but you have been warned.
If a person has accepted Christ as Savior, God’s grace covers all sin. Nothing anyone does, good or bad, changes the way God views that person. This means it does not matter if a person sins, because those sins have already been paid for by Christ’s sacrifice. However, there are usually earthly consequences to sin, and it causes a separation from God while here on earth, so we should avoid doing things that cause this separation.
Again, before I get too many comments, this is a very very brief overview of Christian theology. An entire lifetime can be spent in study, and I have neither the expertise nor the space to get into deep explanations.
I read all the posts on Cody's thread and this one, and my conclusion is that many of the nonbelievers/atheists feel that:
a. when we state our beliefs in a conversation with them, it is an attack, but when they do it, it is not an attack, even if it involves ridiculing Christian belief, and
b. explaining our religious beliefs and using scripture to support it is preachy and an attempt at conversion.
I'm seeing on both these threads a tendency towards closed-mindedness. No one is trying to convert anyone; both sides want the other to understand why they believe and feel the way they do. Unfortunately, Christians explaining why we have certain beliefs is somehow preaching; and it is impossible for any of the things atheists have said on both threads to be an attack.
The nonbelievers on these threads disagree with and are not satisfied with the answers given. I say that because several times, I see the same questions about God and Christians asked, even though such questions have already been answered and are answered again. It seems like the nonbelievers just want to whine and rant and are not looking for answers to their questions. If that wasn't the case, questions would not be repeatedly asked with no statement of not understanding the answer or parts of it that was unclear.
Also, the nonbelievers who posted want to make all sorts of claims about Christians being judgmental and that they believe this and that. But these posters do not realize that they are hypocrites for doing the very thing they don't want people to do to them.
Just because one lives according to a faith does not mean they ignore logic and science. I am not very interested in scientific theory. Sure, I've studied it, just as we all were required to, but I didn't care much about it. As for logic, I am a college student who plans on majoring in philosophy and have already started to study and have taken an interest in logic. I use it when I write papers and debate. There are people who don't affiliate with a faith and are illogical, and there are those who are religious who are illogical. There's rusty spots on both sides of the coin.
I myself use faith to explain what has happened in my life. And I think that the multiple bad things that have happened are a test of faith.
There is no physical evidence that God exists, there is only experience that can explain his existence and involvement in our lives.
I'd like to know how atheists would explain this testimony I will give. It involves something others would probably never talk about on a public forum, but I'm not those people.
In February of last year, I fell into depression. The heavy amount of verbal abuse given in the house I live in was getting to me, and I felt powerless because I was unable to stop it, despite my attempts at having conversations to show my mother how she was treating us. I grew to hate her. Over the months I fell deeper into my depression, and around May or June, I had suicidal thoughts. I never made any attempts to injure or kill myself, but I had an ever-growing feeling that if I didn't exist, I would not have to deal with these feelings of hatred and suicide. I was angry with everyone--my family, the world, my friends, staff at my school, and so on. I blamed God, repeatedly asking him why he would deal me such a terrible hand; why I deserved such an awful mother; and why he brought her back into our lives if he knew this would happen. In Mid to late September, I randomly decided to pick up the New Testament and read from it. After I read, I prayed for the first time in months. Ever since that day, I haven't experienced those feelings again. I believe that because I finally turned to God for help instead of turning away from him, that he was able to help me through my predicament. God will not force his help on us, just as he will not force people to believe in him. I believe that many Christians or others who may believe in God make the mistake of blaming God for everything that happens to them and getting angry with him. Instead of running to him for help, they run away in anger and hatred. This is why God tests us, because I think you'd be surprised at how many people fail their tests.
Another thing I want to explain is a point Cody discussed in this thread. This point was concerning the analogy of the barber and God. He only pointed out the differences between the two, but did not point out any similarities. It seems that he thinks that because God is ubiquitous--omnipotent that people should not have to strive to seek him if he is everywhere.
Cody, I've gathered that even though you've researched the Bible and read some of it, that you do not understand it. Of course you don't. You're not a believer or saved for that matter, so how can you? From this discussion and the ones that occurred between the two of us, it seems that you only take the Bible literally and do not perceive when a verse or story is figurative.
Seeking God is forming a relationship with him. Just because he is everywhere does not meah he has a relationship with everyone. When a person seeks God, that person seeks his love, mercy, comfort, gifts, assistance, blessings, and so on. They fellowship with him and form a friendship with him.
Your parents will not protect you if you don't come to them for help when you know you are being threatened or harmed. The same goes for God. Ask and you shall receive. So as for all these people that have atrocious things happen to them, if they do not talk to God and turn to him in their time of need, he will not help them. This goes for Christians and nonbelievers.
I'm one who was abused (verbally/physically) by my mom and her entire side of the family for 21 years. however, I eventually realized I didn't deserve such crap. I moved out, and happily no longer associate with them. it was my choice; god had absolutely nothing to do with it.
I, too, have faith; faith in myself, along with the knowledge that I have the ability to get through whatever trials life throws at me (not through entrusting an invisible man in the sky to get/keep my life under control).
to the poster before me, who the hell are you to say we don't understand the bible? I really don't appreciate words being put in my mouth, when you've never had an intelligent discussion with me regarding atheism and what it means.
as I've said before, it's what I understand about religion that turns me off from it...not what I don't. and, if anything, christians are the ones claiming they're being personally attacked (not anyone else).
I disagree. If God's judgement of people wasn't influenced by their good and bad deeds, the Bible wouldn't contain guidance on how to be a person who God considers good.
The Bible is clear that people can be saved if they believe in Jesus, but that doesn't mean if you believe in Jesus, you are automatically saved.
I think some Christians focus on Jesus dying for their sins, and pay less attention to what Jesus did before he was captured, and that is why they believe all you have to do to be saved is accept Jesus. Before he died, Jesus lived how he wanted his followers to live. The fact the New Testament contains stories of Jesus setting examples, proves that the message of the New Testament is that in order to be saved, Christians have to follow the examples set by Jesus.
Warning, theological interpretation of the bible again. If you aren’t interested in this, please skip the rest of this post.
Senior,
We are all going to have to answer for the sins we commit. The difference is that all our sins are forgiven when Christ is accepted as Lord and Savior. The bible says that the wages of sin is death, that is, the punishment for sinning is death. That punishment was covered by Christ’s death for all those who believe in Christ as savior.
Romans 3:23 says that we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. This means that we are all sinners, and nothing we can do measures up to God’s righteousness. The only thing God accepts as payment for the things we have done is the death of Christ. It is God’s grace. Grace comes from the Greek word “charis,” which means gift. It’s where we get the word charitable in English.
God’s grace is a gift to us if we accept it. If we could do things to earn God’s acceptance ourselves, then His gift, the death of His son on the cross, would not be needed.
If you are interested in reading where the bible talks about this, read Ephesians, especially the first 2 chapters.
Ephesians 2:6-9 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith -- and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God -- not by works, so that no one can boast.
If you keep reading past this point, Paul does talk about the works we are to do. However, there is a big distinction. We are to do good works because we are saved, not do them to be saved.
Everyone takes something different from each experience in life. The world is filled with countless thoughts and theories about what we should take from life, how we should live it, how we should handle various situations, and so on. Take the statement "I am going away", for example. There are so many ways you could interpret that. I could be going on vacation, moving out, dying, isolating myself. the possibilities are endless. The same could be said for experiences. Maybe the fact that your life got better when you prayed was god's doing. Or, maybe it was simply psychological. the act of praying made you feel less lonely, perhaps, and that made you feel better. maybe you read something in the new testament that touched close to your heart. There's nothing wrong with your interpretation that it was because of god, but that does nothing to show me that he exists. By the same token, telling you my experiences and how I interpret them surely won't convince you that god doesn't exist. God plays no part in my life. Clearly he plays a part in yours. Whether this is really true or just coincidence is something neither of us can prove, nor disprove.
Glenja, first of all, I admire you for posting your beliefs and the reasons behind it. this is a bold statement, since you and I know how people here can react to this. I agree with all that you stated here.
to those who disagree, I'd just like to say that we would never disrespect your believes and that we'd like to see the same from you. There is a difference between respectfully disagreeing and doing so with sarcasm and hatred. I know that there are many people who call themselves christians but do not act like it, but at least here on the site there are quite a few of us who do respect your believes, and, as far as I can tell, nobody is forcing any believes on you. Other things are being addressed freely on here. People can talk about sexual things, for example, and even get praise for it. So why are we not allowed to post our believes without nasty remarks?
I bet you, if an atheist put such a post to explain why they believe what they believe or don't believe what they don't believe, they'd get a heck of a lot of respect on here. Even from us christians. We'd say that, while we do not believe what you believe, we respect your believes. I'd just appreciate it if we would have the same rights.
to the question about why god does not stop the suffering I can only say this:
Glenja's analergy with the children is the best example. god can keep us safe, but he does not force himself into anyone's life. Only those who turn to him, into their life he comes. Otherwise, if he would take controll of us all and if he would run our lives, would that be a loving god? God wants people who love him. Not robots. So god will not make people's decisions for them, and it is people's decision to make others suffer. Cruel as it is. I know god watches from heaven and weeps which those who are being hurt, but because they do not turn to him, he is not forcing himself into their life. God is not a controll freak, he wants to be invited. This might sound ridiculous to some of you, and I'm sure I will get my share of insults, but this is how I see it.
Happy Heart, I never put any words in your mouth. I never claimed that you in particular said anything. I am just explaining what I see on the threads concerning Christian and atheist beliefs and reasoning. I never personally attacked you. But on another thread, atheists stated they don't appreciate Christians attacking their belief, or a lack thereof, and their being atheist. These are the same people who ridicule Christian belief and imply that Christians are illogical on one thread, while saying they don't like being judged and criticized on another. They don't view it as an attack, but they are not on this side of the argument. I don't view someone saying that you're going to hell for not accepting Christ as an attack, but I can see how that phrasing or anything close to it may sound harsh to a nonbeliever..
And if a person doesn't believe in the Bible or try to relate to it, no they will not understand the text and they will misconstrue God's word. If a person reads the Bible with an objective and opposing view of the text, trying to look for discrepancies, no they will not understand it. In church we've been taught that we cannot understand the text if we are not saved. So no, you don't understand the Bible, and neither do other nonbelievers. They cannot perceive and process God's message, because they don't believe in him and are not seeking it.
again, I'm glad you feel like you know what I believe...but, you have no clue whatsoever.
I'm confident in my understanding of religion/the bible, and don't need you (or anyone, for that matter), trying to tell me differently. try as you may, I won't be convinced.
on that note, you don't see us atheists saying, "you christians are a bunch of uneducated, willfully ignorant fucks". maybe I should start, though.
Happy Heart,
Actually, there were already remarks made along those lines, just not quite so directly or profanely. I gave examples of it in an earlier post when I quoted remarks about us being, I believe the term was “logically challenged.”
You also said earlier “when you/other christians say they feel atheists are attacking them, I must disagree. what we're doing is simply sharing our perspective, which, I
feel, religious people such as yourself can't handle.”
Now, you will probably say that your last post wasn’t an attack, but that it’s just you stating your opinion. I don’t see it that way, and I imagine most people who read this board objectively won’t see it that way either. For someone who says that logic is valued, you’re being much more emotional than logical.
Whether or not you choose to see it as a matter of boldly stating your opinion or a personal attack is totally up to you. That goes for religious and non religious people alike. For the religious among us who feel they are being attacked, I'm sure your fellow church members would be happy to discuss how unfair that is all day long. For the atheists/agnostics among us who feel they are being attacked, I'm sure fellow non-believers would be happy to discuss this further. In the case of both sides, if you feel that discussions such as this are not fair, then please, please don't start a topic about it. Even on Safe haven, we don't have to agree with you. We can still disagree with each other, and very strongly if we would like. Personally, I don't feel that either side has been personally attacked on this thread, but maybe I have a very loose definition of a personal attack in general.
From the main page of the Safe Haven board:
“This board is for people who are easily offended by the subject matter of some of the other boards. If you wanna talk dirty, just take it to another board.
We will warn and suspend accounts for people who don't respect this board. After all, you have the rest of the site to post in.”
From this page:
“Welcome to the filosophy/Religion board. This board is for any and everything regarding belief, be that religious/spiritual. Safe haven is this board; no
flame wars and inappropriate language please. Also please do try to be sensitive to the beliefs of others when considering the wording of your board titles.
Otherwise freedom of views and opinions encouraged.”
Maybe attack isn’t exactly the right word. I did think this was a family friendly board, on which we were supposed to respect the opinions that were expressed. I didn’t ask anyone to agree with me, nor tell anyone they were wrong when they did. I do think a certain amount of respect for all opinions should be given though. If you think Happy Heart’s response was either family friendly or respectful, then I apologize.
agreed. I'm shocked how this topic has developped. Here's someone who explains why we believe what we believe, and instead of messages that show understanding and respect, we are being attacked, or, if you don't like the worde attacked, criticized, again.
Let me ask you this: Why can any other religion post their views freely, while we christians have to fear harsh, non-constructive criticism? Don't you think there's something wrong with that?
If you don't, then for me this only proves what the bible says: We will experience mocking and scoffing just because we're christians. Glenn, , we must be doing something right. *smiles*
Agreed. I'm quite shocked how this topic has developed. So we show respect for your believes and you don't feel it's right to do the same for us?
Why can other religions and views be expressed freely, while christians are mocked? Reminds me how the bible says that people are going to mock christians just for being christians. Maybe we're doing something right.
sorry for posting this twice, for some odd reason the site gave me an error message after the first time. Admins you can feel free to delete one of them.
It's one thing to oppose and disagree, and another to indulge in attacking a person and/or their beliefs. The other atheists/nonbelievers who say they do not see how Christians on this board have been attacked probably don't believe so because they share the same opinion and judge Christians similarly.
I'm just explaining that people are doing the same things they don't want Christians to do to them. Personal attack is actually a fallacy, I learned that in logic class. So for all the people who claim they are logical while using such tactics as name-calling and attack on a certain group of people to support or disagree with an opinion, they are being illogical. Of course, if they have refused to understand that by now, they will continue to. Some people criticize their own work heavily, while others see no mistakes in theirs. Too, some people are unable to properly express their opinions without the fallacy of personal attack.
It's funny when people have written several times in a board topic, then when they can't find anymore points to prove or refute certain points, they simply question the reasoning behind the creation of the board or tell people not to read a certain thread just because they disagree with a certain position.
I don't believe that the atheists have been attacked either, on this topic or any other. Have we been disagreed with? Yes. But just as I don't see how our strong disagreements with the Christians have been attacks, I don't see how the christians' disagreements with us have been attacks, either. maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see any atheists on this thread claiming to have been attacked. You know why? because we haven't, and we know it. I'm sorry if you feel that you have. don't forget that this board still encourages freedom of belief and discussion. Just keep the dirty talk and fowel language out of it. I'll respect that. But I'm not going to refrain from posting my thoughts on a *discussion* topic just because the person who originally posted this topic, of his own free will, or anyone else for that matter, might disagree with me. I do recall seeing one instance of fowel language that should have been left out, but for nothing more or less than the fact that this board is family friendly. Other than that, I don't see that anyone has said anything wrong in their statements, from either side of the discussion.
I do wish that my posts would actually be read. I do reiterate that I do not expect everyone to agree with me. Let’s get that out, again I say, I do not expect everyone, or for that matter, anyone to agree with me.
Again I say, attack may have been the wrong word, I said that in an earlier post. I hereby formally apologize for using that word.
The point that I am driving at, and one that those who don’t agree with me seem to keep overlooking, is simple respect. I wrote in my very first post here that I was trying to sincerely answer questions that I also assumed to be sincerely asked. I did not, and still do not, expect atheists, nor anyone else to agree with everything I have written. I really did think this to be a board for civil discourse on topics that may be controversial.
Now, I am specifically referring to Happy Heart’s last post. It is a more blatant example of what I am saying, but it’s not the only one. Again, please listen to what I am saying. I am not asking that Happy Heart, nor anyone else agree with what I’ve said. However, statements like “on that note, you don't see us atheists saying, "you christians are a bunch of uneducated, willfully ignorant fucks". maybe I should start, though.” As being either just a statement of belief, nor conducive to active discourse on the topic at hand.
Attack, maybe not, but definitely a threat to bring this discussion down to a different level. If sarcasm and mocking of another’s beliefs isn’t considered too much, I propose that this kind of talk definitely is. Can you imagine the kind of heat I would have taken if I had written those exact words about atheism? If you are honest with yourself, I don’t think your response about it would have been quite so blasé.
This may be a side note, but I find it interesting. I keep getting called on the carpet for not liking it when people disagree with me. I’m told that those who disagree with me have the right to express their opinions. However, when I express my opinion of feeling attacked, I’m told I’m wrong. OK, since the word attack is too strong for some, I’ll word it differently. I, and others here, have been treated disrespectfully for our beliefs. I’m probably sounding like I’m whining, and maybe I am, but I think it’s more about the way I think all people should be treated. I very much disagree with the reasoning and beliefs of atheists and other non-Christians, but I don’t believe anywhere in what I have written has there been disrespect nor the attempt to tell others they aren’t entitled to their beliefs.
I'm sure this discussion has no end. Cuz preachers will keep on preaching and the other side of the coin, me for an example. will keep on denying whatever the preacher is telling.
So let's see how it goes.
Raaj.
for the record, I put the cussing in quotes for a reason. I know that sort of language is to be kept off this particular board, and I have no problem respecting that. however, I was simply trying to make a point in saying what I did.
I don't feel I've been attacked, and I doubt I ever would. I also realize that I have a much looser definition of the phrase "personal attack", than most people.
as has been said, though, neither side is ever gonna win.
Again, I feel that the issue I keep bringing up is being avoided. No one is speaking to the issue of respecting another’s views. Does anyone think that this is important besides me? There is a difference between attack and respect. I’ll go so far as to stipulate that there were no attacks. What about the respect issue though? Does that matter? If not, then no one should complain about whatever is said, including the forcing of Christian beliefs on these boards. After all, if it’s disrespectful to do that, then respect must be an issue…it’s only logical.
Another thing the nonbelievers on this board keep overlooking is that we're not looking for agreement but understanding. The nonbelievers asked questions, got answers, but are dissatisfied with the answers because they have an objective mindset. They don't want to understand.
Glenja, I wish they would read your posts too. By the looks of the posts by most of the nonbelievers, it seems that they aren't reading our posts. They don't acknowledge the crucial points of our posts, and seem to have forgotten all the words they used in their own.
I also feel that the issue of disrespect is being ignored. It seems that the nonbelievers think we can't be disrespected just because they've ridiculed our beliefs. Apparently, they don't feel that ridiculing and scorn is disrespectful. To them,they are simply stating their opinion, no matter how it's worded.
Logic is on the back burner.
Okay, for those who think Christians have not been insulted or disrespected on these two threads, take a look at this.
The following are some quotes by nonbelievers, followed by how it proves a point made by a Christian that was denied by a nonbeliever.
"Unlike many religious people, most atheists aren't trying to win a debate, and we really don't care what you believe."
Christians are not trying to win a debate. We will defend ourselves against those atheist who harshly criticize all Christians, just as an atheist will defend themselves against a harsh, overzealous Christian. We share that right.
"Icompletely disagree that atheists jump down religious people's throats; if anything, it's the other way around."
This statement proves that, at least this particular atheist, believes expressing their opinion with unkind words and disrespect is not "jumping down Christians' throats about how our religion is illogical, unloving, (insert whatever negative adjective you choose). This statement also implies that atheists never jump down Christians throats about how our religion is wrong and the God we worship is nonexistent.
"I find it somewhat insulting that you think the best way to solve the problem is to act like I'm a christian, and have my principles compromised, rather than have the christians who are invading my personal space, wasting my time with their pointless ramblings, and making a sceen in the middle of a public area, should have to be taught a lesson about their own dogma, by someone who thinks that it is the cause of nearly all human ills."
"Thank you, I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels that way."
And to note, there were several posts after that in agreement, which says that the atheists felt, not attacked, but insulted. No atheist is owning up to insulting or disrespecting Christians, while the Christians on the two threads apologized and explained the behaviors of the Christians who have insulted nonbelievers and cannot defend themselves on these threads.
"I'll take it a step further and say people who share your views (most of the world) absolutely sicken me."
"I hope you will one day come to understand logic and stop making sacrifices for something less than tangible."
"we must show some love to those who are logically challenged."
"...thank you. sweet, logical people such as yourselves make my heart soar...unlike *clears throat* others that make me wanna puke my guts out."
If none of that is disrespectful, tell me what it is. Yes, it's expressing your opinion very disrespectfully. It's stepping out of the discussion and tossing in unwarranted insults.
"I'm very secure in my atheism. people see it for themselves; I don't have to tell them. christians, on the other hand, bring god into everything. I choose to give myself the credit I not only deserve, but should take. especially when I'm making said thing happen myself."
We thank God and give him credit because we believe that, without him, we would not have what we have, do what we are able to do, be where we are, and be who we are. By saying that you are secure in your atheism, and following it up with Christians giving God all the credit is saying that we are insecure in our faith when we are showing commitment to our faith by praising God for all he did, is doing, and will do for us.
None of you guys find any of this is disrespectful or insulting in any way, really?
The concept of respecting beliefs is stupid. I don't expect anybody to respect my beliefs, nor do I respect anybody else's beliefs. Why should anybody's beliefs be respected by those who don't share them?
People can disagree with, criticise and attack beliefs they disagree with. I think that people who are sensitive about opposition to their beliefs, are insecure in their beliefs. In trying to convince others, they are trying also to convince themselves. Their external disagreements are also taking place internally in their own minds. They are trying to resist the beliefs they don't want to have.
Personally, I don't get worked up as Christians or atheists in debates about religion. I simply explain and defend my position calmly, and challenge views I disagree with. I think I am able to take this approach because I am convinced that my beliefs are right, and I am secure in my beliefs. I don't need anybody to share my beliefs, though of course I would like everybody to share my beliefs. So comfortable am I in my own beliefs, that it doesn't bother me if other people would rather be Christians, atheists, Muslims, or something else.
It’s really very simple: Beliefs should be respected because the people themselves deserve respect. The two really can’t be separated.
There's a difference between disagreeing with someone's beliefs and disrespecting them.
And okay, if you don't respect the belief, respect the person/people.
In the quotes that I posted above, those people insulted Christians. And the people who said those things are now denying they were insulting. Maybe it's because they are not Christians or religious at all and cannot see their insults for what they are.
I have to disagree with you on that. No one deserves respect, you earn it. For an example, you wouldn't want to respect a nazi would you? You wouldn't let him stand outside your house and scream nazi hate speech, you'd probably call the police, or take some other action to have it stopped; and who could blame you. However, at the same time, you are not "respecting" his views, and please note the quotations there. But that is rather nit-picky.
Raven, you say I don't understand the bible because I've never been saved, but I have been saved, twice as a matter of fact. Once in the weslyn church when I was very young, and once again in the Greek Orthodox church when I was in my mid-teens. I am not one of those people that just decided to become an atheists because I liked the t-shirts, I lived the life, walked the walk, and drank the cool-ade.
To say that a non-believer can't understand the bible, is an obvious statement. Of course your going to think that we can't understand it, because it is the basis for your faith. If we're right, and it is truly as flawed as we claim it to be, then you must admit that your faith is based on pure foolishness; and I doubt anyone is going to be doing that anytime soon.
However, just as easily as you make that claim, I can claim that I can better understand the bible than you can, because I do not need to have a preacher gleen the meaning from the book, and spoon feed it to me. I have no debates about what the bible says, and if I do, I can solve them very easily, I simply open the book and go, "here, read what it says."
The difference is, I say that the bible is flawed based on the words written on the page. You say the bible is perfect based on the meaning you see in the words. But, if they are god's words, which I think we can all agree is the commonly held belief among christians, why do so many people get so many different answers from the words?
How is it that the same book that allows you to overcome your depression, can allow christians in kansas to put up signs saying "god hates fags", and, "AIDS is god's punishment for fags", each taken from their website. How can they both be from the same book, if they are the word of god?
I'm not saying, how can you disagree with me, I know how that happens, I'm not a christian. I'm asking, if the bible is the word of god, then how do you get those two vast differences from it? If its the word of god, why isn't it concreet?
Oh, and when I ask this question, as I do quite often, I always get the answer, "well they aren't true christians". Basically translated, that's, "I'm right, and their wrong, because I say so", are you really going to base your faith on something so childish. Next you'll be saying, "I'm taking my bible and going home".
Next, I'd like to know this. How can god have a plan for us, yet we must seek him. Doesn't that mean that he knows that bill is going to be a sinner and an atheist, but lucy is going to be a believer, long before bill or lucy even exist? And if he does, why does he bring bill into existence at all. If he can control all the pieces, why does he let some of them move smoothly along his train track, and flip some off into a ditch?
If your a train master, and you know every inch of the track, and you know full well one track has a broken bridge on it, why would you let the train go down, then say, "Well they'll come ask me if the bridge is down, and I'll know that I am truly their train master." I'm sorry, but that is pure cruelty.
If all that is believed of god is true, he exists, and is in control of everything. If he has a plan for all of us, and created all of us. If he loves us all and wants to protect us all, then God is cruel, uncaring, and harsh, and I do not wish to serve him. Some piece of the puzzle doesn't fit there.
Cody has said everything I was going to, but I have to second him in saying people don't respect what they don't believe in. you may understand others believe differently than you, and accept that's the way it is...but respect doesn't come into play.
I think we should all be lucky that the worst we might get on these boards is some mockery and ridicule, whoever we are. As an agnostic, freethinker, whatever you want to call me, I'm used to it and all the assorted outlandish accusations because that's what you get when your beliefs are not in the majority or mainstream. As for Christians, I think their leaders should quit playing the persecution card, especially in America where Christianity and its beliefs are held in the highest esteem and Christians are one of the most privileged groups in this country. Just because you are ridiculed does not mean youv'e lost any privilege. Be lucky you Christians don't lose your jobs or get assaulted or have your property vandalized because of your beliefs. Be extremely lucky that if you are discovered to be Christian taht you are not marched off either to prison for the rest of your life or just taken to some quiet spot where you are executed.
Christians respect our differences in beliefs? Ok. then why aren't homosexuals allowed to marry? Why are we discouraged from having sex before marriage? For those of you who honestly are okay with that sort of thing as long as we don't make you participate, great. congratulations. But unfortunately I've met more people who say it isn't okay than I have those who honestly don't mind. Beliefs should, at the very least, be accepted, but only if they don't interphere with those who don't share in those beliefs. I'm sorry, but I don't see how this is the case with homosexuals being forbidden to marry, for example. Yes, in many places this is also against the law, but I can think of a few such instances right here on the zone where people have said homosexuality is a sin.
Godzilla on Toast,
You’ve written a mouthful. I agree with what you say. We are very fortunate, or blessed if you believe, to be in this country. I am grateful for the freedoms we have here, and do not take it for granted. As the Declaration of Independence says, “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights.” Some of those rights include the right to believe or not in a Creator
And as a Christian, before I get called on the equal rights thing, let me turn to the words of Mortimer Adler. Adler was a former college instructor, Columbia I think but am not positive, and former editor of the Encyclopedia Britanica. I say former because he has passed away. This isn’t a direct quote, but I believe it’s close. “there was no concept of equality in western thinking until the 18th century, except in the text of the bible.”
I do not know if Adler was a Christian or not, but he was an expert in western philosophy. I argue the point that If inequality exists, it’s less a Christian thing, and more the imperfect implementation by imperfect people of Christian thought.
As for what you’ve written Silver Lightning, I will be happy to offer an explanation if you want. However, I ask, do you really want an answer? You asked questions on another board, and they were given. Those answers were discredited and mocked. That’s fine, because I again say that not everyone has to agree with Christian teachings.
My question is, are you looking for answers that you agree with, will change your mind, or just explain things from a Christian viewpoint? I can only do the last of these, not the first two. If you want to know why we do what we do, or think what we think, I will take the time to answer. If it’s one of the first two reasons, I think we just need to say we can’t agree and leave it at that.
I think what you and others need to understand, Glenja, is that when we ask questions of you, it's sincere. why you'd even think otherwise is beyond me.
sorry to inform you, but the cold, hard truth is that it's inevitable that we're gonna come back with responses you don't approve of.
that's just life; you can either suck it up and deal, as we do when others disagree with us, or you can continue wining.
oh, and, if ever you feel the desire to inquire about how atheism actually plays a role in our lives, I'm sure many of us would be more than happy to answer.
I want neither of those. I want answers that actually answer the question fully, and don't have more holes in them than swiss cheese.
Oh and, equality in the bible? I don't think I can think of anything more unequal than a book that openly supports slavery, selling daughters into prostitution, and sets one man over another. How in the world is that equal at all? If anything, the bible is the figurehead of inequality.
The thing is, I already know you disagree. If you want to know why we believe what we do just to turn around and argue about it then I don’t think you are really interested in what we have to say. When you get down to it, belief or unbelief is an opinion, but when we give reasons for our opinion, they are jumped on. I think that this may be what is really bothering me about this board and the respect/disrespect issue. I started this thread as a way to answer sincere questions about my faith. I already know that atheists and non-Christians aren’t going to put any stock into what I’m saying. I assumed those who were non-believers who asked questions were just curious about where we believers were coming from. Since I wasn’t expecting anyone’s mind to be changed, I think that’s why I was so surprised at the comments that were being made. Non-believers aren’t going to agree, that is a given, the answers I assumed were for educational purposes.
Happy Heart, are you really asking why I don’t think you seriously want answers? It’s because every time an answer is given, the response back isn’t along the lines of, “oh, that’s why you believe that,” or “I get it now, I don’t agree, but I see where you are coming from.” Instead, when we give answers to why we believe as we do, words like illogical, uneducated, etc are used. I already know you don’t agree, that isn’t the issue, I just sort of thought answers were desired. It’s sort of like asking me what my favorite food is, and I say meatloaf. If you then turn around and say I’m wrong because meatloaf is disgusting, then you really didn’t want to know in the first place. Maybe that’s a poor analogy, but I think you get what I’m saying.
Also, the reason I don’t ask about atheism is because I have already explored it and have got the answers I sought. I have had quite a bit of formal education, and it was in secular, not religious institutions. I’ve lived a number of years so far in the world, not stuck away in a cloistered monastery. What I’m saying here is that though many non-believers find religious beliefs illogical, I have looked at both sides of the issue, logically, and have come down on the side of belief. As you and others don’t agree with me, I also disagree with what you believe, or I guess, don’t believe as the case may be. I don’t ask about atheism because my questions have already been answered.
This may lead to a more appropriate example though to my earlier point. If I ask you why you are an atheist, and you say, just for an example, “It’s because I’ve seen no evidence of God.” If I tell you there is evidence all around of some type of intelligent design then I didn’t really want to know why you specifically were an atheist. . If you gave an answer to my question, that was all I was originally seeking. Arguing who is right and who is wrong wasn’t the original question, and it wasn’t the reason this thread was started.
Silver Lightning,
I’m willing to answer questions, but again, it’s probably not what you are going to be happy with. What I think of as being a solid answer you will probably say that it is full of holes. Are you interested in why we believe what we do, which is why this thread was actually started, or are you wanting some kind of scientific proof for the existence of God? I can no more prove the existence of God than you can prove that He doesn’t exist. I can however provide answers to why we think and do the things we do. If this isn’t what you are wanting, then I don’t think any answer on any board will satisfy you.
As for the equality thing, you are confusing what people did with what the bible says. I quoted a well known secular expert on western thought, and it was him that said the bible was the only place equality was found before the 18th century. You may not agree with him either, but I imagine his credentials are better than yours or mine.
If you expect every single person to ever ask you a question to respond by saying, "oh, that's interesting", your never going to have very long conversations in your life. That's how it works, you get asked a question, you answer it, then the person responds to your answer. If you look at the beginning of the board, you may see the barber shop analogy. I didn't call what you said illogical, I simply pointed out mistakes in it; when you tried to fill them, I pointed out more mistakes. That is the thing, when we try and point out things in the bible that are illogical, or cruel, or wrong, or scientifically impossible, we're criticized; yet you are allowed to say that we don't know anything, don't possibly know what we're talking about, couldn't possibly understand the bible. So basically, your saying that christianity is only for your little club, and us idiots who don't belong, are just footstools for you to rest your oh so intellectually superior feet on. Your so much better than us fools who question your beliefs, and your belief in god gives you some mystical ability to understand; yet your understanding doesn't give you the ability to fully answer a single question your asked.
the basic idea I think all the atheists on here have been trying to get at is this; if your god is so perfect, so powerful, so right, so clear, and so wonderful, how can we be questioning him. It makes no sense to us, and you have not been able to answer that question, let alone any other question. You spout some scripture, thinking that it will answer the question, when all it does it open you up for more questions that you can't answer.
Scripture may have been enough for you, maybe your given comfort by those, and are perfectly fine with them. But keep in mind, those scriptures you so desperately cling to, say its perfectly fine to sell your daughter into slavery, and can't even agree from chapter to chapter, on the manner in which your savior died; so maybe they aren't so perfect after all. But you'll never admit that, because your too busy spouting off scriptures, while your not trying to convert anyone.
I didn’t really think this was a conversation as such. The original question was just why we do or think what we do. If you want to debate the subject, that is a completely different thing. I haven’t done any debate because in your other thread, every time we give an argument we are accused of trying to force our beliefs down someone’s throat. If you want to debate, that’s perfectly fine, however, as has already been stated here, it is probably futile since the battle lines are already clearly drawn and no one is interested in switching sides.
When we do give an answer to a non-believer’s question, as I said earlier, they are not interested in an answer. They seem to want some scientific proof, and that isn’t happening on either side. In my first post I said that I think the “Big Bang Theory” is impossible because of one of the basic tenants of physics, the law of conservation of energy and matter. If I had asked you why you believe there is no God, and you had said because of this theory, I would have had an answer to my question. I wouldn’t have agreed with you, but I had my answer. On the other hand, if I was more interested in just proving you wrong, then I would have begin to show why the Big Bang Theory wasn’t possible in my opinion. So, my stand is still the same. If you want to know why, I’ll answer. If you don’t agree, and want to argue, then the purpose of this board has changed, and maybe it should be another thread.
I’m not sure what you’ve read in any of my posts, and I’m not responsible for anything anyone else has written, but I’ve never directly, nor indirectly, referred to anyone as an idiot or fool. I have not been condescending in any way. My complaint earlier was the lack of respect we were given, and I have been very respectful to anyone with opposing views.
You wrote, “the basic idea I think all the atheists on here have been trying to get at is this; if your god is so perfect, so powerful, so right, so clear, and so wonderful,
how can we be questioning him. It makes no sense to us, and you have not been able to answer that question, let alone any other question. “
This is the first time the first part of your remark has been asked. You’re asking now why you can be questioning God. That has nothing to do with why I believe what I do, which is the way this thread started. That kind of question is really covered in an earlier remark I made, but I’ll say again, if you want to debate, that is fine, but it wasn’t the purpose of this board. The only time I quoted scripture was to show other Christians where I got what I was saying; as I said at the time I used it. I don’t think it was spouting scripture; it was more a reference, like a footnote, to interested individuals. I also used it in response to a post by Senior because he asked a theological question, and it was used specifically to answer that question.
You talk about me spouting scripture, but you do far more of it than I do, though it’s been drastically paraphrased. I have not attempted to answer many of these specific questions because of what I have previously said. It isn’t really why I started this thread, and any answer I give won’t convince you anyway.
I’ve tried to hit most of the main points of your last post, though I may have missed something; I apologize if I did.
OK, my turn. Why are you so angry? I may not have answered your questions the way you wanted, but I don’t think I personally deserve your anger. If you are angry at Christians in general, I can’t do anything about that, I haven’t been the cause. You seem to really want to lash out, contributing words, thoughts, and actions to me that are not justified in anything I have written. I think maybe I should be angry because of these things you have written about me that aren’t true, but if I have to put a name to what I’m feeling, it’s sadness.
Oh I'm not angry at all, we're having a debate, its not my fault you think me debating is angry. Believe me, you'd know if I were angry, everyone who read this board would know if I were angry.
From what you said it seems like you want us all to just accept what you say without question, not really surprising, since that is the basic idea of christianity in a nutshell, but it isn't going to fly with me, and its probably not going to fly with any of the others who oppose you on here. Just because you say, "I'm really not trying to convert anyone", and say it repeatedly, doesn't mean we're not going to point out where your belief is flawed. It appears you can't take that; and if so, you should never create a board post again, because that is what board posts are for. If you want everyone to leap up and scream, "Can I get a witness", to everything you say, then go to your church, where you all think exactly the same. But don't expect us to do it when you put your beliefs in public.
I'm really not trying to convert anyone, but the bible of basic general knowledge says that if you don't want people to oppose your beliefs, don't tell anyone about them; but I'm really not trying to convert anyone, I swear I'm not.
Cody, I apologize for saying you are not saved when the opposite is true.
Any piece of writing is interpreted differently by different people. If one verse is put in front of a congregation, all members will not interpret the verse the same. There are different denominations of Christianity and different versions of the Bible and other Holy books because people have interpreted them differently.
People have their own definitions of words. For example, people have different definitions of attack here on this thread.
Meaning in words is lost as a text is translated from one language to another.
Also, metaphors and other comparisons are used in the Bible, and if a person doesn't know what to look for, a comparison is easy to mistake as a straightforward statement.
As you said yourself: "The difference is, I say that the bible is flawed based on the words written on the page. You say the bible is perfect based on the meaning you see in the words."
As a writer, you know that every word does not have one meaning, and a word's definition changes with its context. When people take God's or anyone else's words out of context, they misconstrue them and jump to their own conclusions, believing they are correct.
Such misunderstandings can probably occur in every language, especially in English where a word as simple as run can have over thirty definitions in addition to the ones people assign to it on the side.
People will take God's words and combine it with their pre-existing beliefs or the ones they have formed based on experience and knowledge or a lack thereof. For instance, those who picket and strongly oppose homosexuality with hurtful words and ignorant statements did not draw that from the Bible. I'm not going to say whether or not they are true Christians because I know know nothing else about them besides that they are ignorant, hate homosexuals, and have excluded words of the Bible so they can twist and use select verses to justify their wrongdoings. God lets these people do this because, as has been stated before, God gives us freewill. They have just as much a right to openly oppose homosexuality as people have the right to advocate for homosexuals. And that's according to a judge and God. Obviously, these people who believe they are doing right will face consequences. No one gets away with doing anything wrong, they just aren't punished or don't repay as soon as people believe they should in the way that they should.
God uses nonbelievers to bless other nonbelievers and those who do believe.
I remember a story from Sunday school in which a woman was getting low on money and was not able to purchase groceries for her home to have a proper meal. For a week, she prayed to God, asking him to help her obtain groceries. When the woman came home one night, she discovered sacks of groceries on her porch. She immediately raised her head and threw her hands toward the sky, shouting out thanks to God for helping her. A man next door on his porch told her that he had purchased and given her those groceries, not God.
Whether this story is true or not or silly or not, the point of it is that God uses nonbelievers to help his children.
We must seek God to get into his kingdom and obtain his gifts and blessings.
God tests us to teach us life lessons, give us wisdom to help us carry on through life and to pass to others, and to test our faith and trust in him. If I didn't answer what you were asking, sorry. You're last question is unclear to me. It seems that there are different questions mashed into that last paragraph, but I'm not sure.
Raven, you did answer the question, in your fashion, but it still screams out, why would god's word be so mistranslated so easily. I mean, how can someone expect for people to follow them and their commandments, if they can't figure out what in the world they said.
For example, if I was having a conversation with you, and I said asldfkiivjudwkcoeie, you'd probably think I just had a seizure on my keyboard, you wouldn't go, "Why yes cody, the weather is quite nice today." The reason you wouldn't say that, is because you had no idea what I just said. So how can god be misunderstood.
Lets assume god is real for a moment. His commandments would thefore be rather important. Why would he make something that is so important, absolutely impossible to understand. Ok, so they're are several different languages, well god created those languages when he destroyed the tower of bable, so why didn't god translate his words into different languages himself.
Also, if the bible, which is called god's word, truly is the word of god, why can't it agree on anything? Why was man created twice, why is the world a plate, supported on four pillars, with a dome over it, why couldn't noah decide whether he was supposed to take all the animals he could actually eat, or all the animals in the world onto his ark, why are people forbidden to eat insects that don't exist? In short, why is god's word, which would be so very very important if he were real, so twisted and unintelligible. If I went to a doctor for surgery, and he talked in gibberish, I'd find a new doctor. Why isn't god under the same restrictions, what, does he mumble or stammer, so the author/authors of the bible can't understand what the heck he's trying to say?
If you think about it from a nontheological standpoint, it doesn't make any sense. Sure, from the point of view of a christian, it makes perfect sense. Christians love to toss out that little theological bandade, "the lord works in mysterious ways". I like to say, "this doesn't make any bloody sense, and I'm not following it anymore", which I did.
To quote Luke, “I think what we have here is a failure to communicate.” The original question was just why. If someone answers that, a retort isn’t asked for. If you didn’t want to actually know why, which is a personal thing, then why ask? As I already stated, we on this side of the issue already know you don’t agree, and probably can list your arguments before you do. If you wanted to debate, instead of just asking why, then that should have been the approach you took at the beginning.
When a policeman has a suspect who pleads guilty, then asks why the crime is committed, he doesn’t begin listing why the crime was wrong. All the policeman was seeking was the reason the crime was done. That’s what I thought you wanted, the reasons we believe and do what we do as Christians.
And yes, I didd expect people to just accept what I said, because I was just answering the initial question. I was stating why I, and other Christians I know, believe as I/we do. I wasn’t telling anyone that was why they should believe, which I think is how you and others took it. That is why I kept saying I wasn’t trying to convert anyone, because I wasn’t. It was a personal answer given to answer the question of why, nothing else.
Cody, there's a difference between jibberish and different interpretations of a work. I'll paraphrase what I've said before: All people will not perceive one sentence the same way, let alone a book.
God is not going to stop anyone from creating their own Bible comprised of basic Christian beliefs and fundamentals mixed with some of their own.
Also, the word of God is not "absolutely impossible to understand." If it was, I think there would be fewer Christians than there are today. It can be interpreted and translated in many different ways, but that doesn't render it impossible to comprehend.
Also, as I have explained to you before, that statement about the world is a metaphor.
But truth can't be twisted raven. You can't take an absolute truth, which god's word is claimed to be, and twist it to have several different meanings. If it has several different meanings, they can't all be true, and it can't be an absolute. Take newton's third law, every action has an equal an opposite reaction. Now, that means one thing, and one thing only, there's no twisting that. if newton said, every action might possibly have an equal and opposite reaction, but it could have an inequal reaction and a reaction in the same direction, or it might not, or might only on wednesday, after you've eaten too many tacos, and if you hit yourself on the head with an apple hard enough it will. If he'd said that, it would be newton's third gibberish, not his third law. Law, by its nature is concrete, that is what makes it a law.
God's word is law, I'm pretty sure that's in the bible somewhere. So if it is law, why isn't it concrete? Why is it that I could pretty much just pull any meaning I want out of the air, and run with that? That's basically what your saying, your saying as long as I gleen some meaning from the bible, then its god's word. So you would condone me stoning a child to death who disobeyed their parent, or selling my future daughter into slavery? You'd call that christianity, is that what your saying?
Actually, that was Old Testament, not New Testament, but there is more to it than that. I don’t think this is the forum for it, but let me try explaining what I think Raven is saying.
You’re right, truth is truth. The problem is, we as humans don’t always understand it. Just because we don’t understand it doesn’t mean the truth has changed, only our understanding of it. So before you say something about it, let me give you a secular, scientific example. If you can explain it differently than mankind has a new understanding of things, then I’ll be more willing to listen to your interpretation of scripture.
Einstein discovered/wrote the law of relativity. The equation as most of us know is E=MC squared. This means energy is equal to the mass of an object multiplied by the speed of light times the speed of light. Einstein used the letter C for the speed of light because it is a constant.
OK, since Einstein’s time, scientists have determined that the speed of light is not a constant. Around black holes the speed of light changes. Now, the speed of light has always done this, mankind just did not always realize it. The truth of the speed of light is the same; man’s interpretation of it is what has changed.
The comparison with the bible is that our interpretation is colored by many factors, including personal experiences and biases, as well as various cultural factors that have changed over time. Just because our interpretation changes doesn’t mean that the Truth presented by God has changed. It is the same as it was, it is our imperfect understanding that changes.
So basically, god's word is god's word, we're just too stupid to understand it yet; yet still we're supposed to follow it, or we burn in the fiery pits of hell for eternity. However, if we somehow pick out the right version, we get let into heaven, but we won't actually know that we're doing the right thing, because we're too stupid to actually understand what god is saying, and therefore the entire thing is pretty much just guesswork. Thanks, I'll stick with atheism.
Probably a good idea since science and people are so reliable.
Hahahahahaha! Glenn, I love you!
Cody, unless someone has an issue psychologically, it's not difficult to figure out what's wrong or right. Acts such as murder, theft, and lying are obviously wrong. It's been deemed wrong by legislation and the Bible.
The basics aren't complicated. Christ died on the cross for our sins. Confess that you believe such, repent from your sins ask the Lord to come into your heart, and ask for salvation, wisdom and understanding of the word. Saved.
There's more to Christianity than that. But the point I'm trying to prove in this post is that there's no guessing. I don't know what's confusing about the messages from the Bible I read. I can't speak for all versions of the Bible, but I've explored three versions and they all say the same thing in different words.
And if you've ever heard of or played the game telephone, it's easy to see how the truth is often twisted. If you've witnessed or read about a court case, it's easy to understand why and how people often twist the truth.
Raven, twisting the truth is called lying, in a court room is called purgery. It doesn't make it the truth in different words, it makes it a lie. in the game telephone, people say what they think is the truth, but it is still wrong, and wrong truth is just a lie in truth's clothing.
How can you say that its just as simple as asking jesus into your heart, when earlier you said that no one who has been saved can actually understand. And how can you say that they all say the same thing, when earlier you said that everyone gleens different messages from them. Its either one or the other.
As for right and wrong. I say that theft, murder and lying are not wrong. Murder in your own defense is perfectly right. Stealing to feed your starving children is perfectly right. Lying to protect a friend is perfectly right, yet tese are all wrong in your definition.
I never said it's as simple as asking Jesus into your heart.
And I'll stick with my statement about not being able to understand God's word if one is not saved. By saying that, I did not intend it to mean that someone who isn't saved will see the Bible as jibberish. I mean that If a person does not have a close relationship with Christ they will not be able to analyze different stories and draw symbolism, inspiration, and wisdom from them.
Also, I spoke for myself in my previous post not a group of people. While I believe that the three versions of the Bible that I have explored say the same thing in different words, three other people may think they all say something different.
Sure, I approve of those reasons for murdering, stealing, and lying. Let's not knitpick. In the Bible I read, there are no ifs or unlesses. Deuteronomy 5: 17 and 19 only say: "You shall not murder," and "You shall not steal." Ephesians 6: 1 says to obey your parents, and I don't oppose that commandment. But if a mother tells her child to commit malicious acts, I'm not okay with that.
But the bible doesn't say thou shalt not steal unless it seems ok for you to do so, it says thou shall not steal. Same with murder and lying.
That is the basis for the idea that the bible is meant as a moral code, and not a very good one. The bible is no different than the iliad or the odyssey. It is a story about gods and heroes, which is meant to give a message. I don't think anyone these days thinks that the iliad will get them into the halls of mount olympus.
You are absolutely correct when you write that the bible does not say that thou shall not steal unless you think it is OK, or for that matter, commit any other sin. If a person steals, for example, even with the best of intentions, that person will still be convicted in a court of law. If found guilty in a human court, why should we expect anything less from God.
That is why God knows we need forgiveness and salvation. We are all guilty of sin, whether or not it adds up to the breaking of human laws, and we need what God has to offer us.
this is why I'm not christian. I live my life according to my own morals. Yes, I must follow my parents' rules as long as I'm living under their roof, but I can choose not to follow them once I live elsewhere, and my parents don't say to me, "If you don't live by our morals you'll be condemned to an enternity of hell". I don't use any book as a guide, and I don't see how anyone can blindly do so. If you agree with everything in the bible, good for you, but no way of explaining this to me is going to make me any more likely to follow this. I might be more likely to accept christianity if god said live your life the way you want to, so long as you are genuinely thankful for the things you do have, and so long as your way of living doesn't harm anyone else. But see, this is how I do live, minus the God. I thank those who have done wonderful things for me, I praise myself when it is do, appologize when I have done something wrong, and I can perfectly well do all this on my own. If I'm going to ask for advice or support, it is going to be from someone that has proven their existence to me in some way. the only physical rules I follow to this date are the laws of this country, but don't think I don't question several of them every day. the only reason I accept them is because I've seen for myself what happens if you don't. if I could talk to someone from hell today and say to them, "Hey. So you're in hell. what did you do to land yourself here", maybe I would think twice about the bible, but until then, I'm just going to live.
Actually, if you kill someone in self defense, you won't be condemned in a court; its perfectly legal. Stealing when your starving is rarely ever punished because there is a clause that says that if you can prove a crime was necessary, then you will not be prosecuted; and no attorney would dare the publicity of charging a starving father of stealing to feed his starving children. He'd be hanged.
Besides all of that though, if you say that god must be held to the same stricture as man's laws, then why do we need god? We either need god, or government, and the other one is just wasting space and prosecuting power.
I have to seriously question anyone who truly needs a god to tell them that something is right and wrong. are you truly saying that you need the threat of a fiery pit to keep you from killing another person? Is that how shallow your morals are?
If you want to know my basis of morals, take a look at john locke's work. He points out why people should be moral, without use of a bible. He even points out how the bible makes absolutely no sense, and in sixteen hundreds england; now that takes some balls.
In case you don't want to read john locke, and if you don't your really missing out on some genious writing, I'll paraphrase.
We should not steal because, in agreeing to live in a society, we have agreed to respect other's property, and to be subject to the disciplines they lay down. Any man who is wronged, has the natural right to take action against those who wrong him, based on the agreement of the society.
This is basically saying that because we agree to live together, we must respect each other. If we live in the natural world, that is to say the wild, we are not subject to these restrictions. In that setting is the survival of the fittest, the one who is willing to do the most, gets the most.
If the world were to plunge into a nuclear war tomorrow, I can garrantee that the ones who died first, would be the ones who clung to the bible and its teachings. I myself would be out there with a pistol, ready to kill anyone who tried to take my food.
Morals are only enforceable when its convenient. You can say, "thou shalt not kill", until someone is trying to kill you; then it quickly changes to "thou shalt die if thou does not kill the person attacking thee".
I can almost promise you, if your being raped, as terrible as that would be, and you had a gun in your hand, those ten commandments you memorized would go straight out the window. You'd kill to save yourself, steal to feed yourself, lie to escape, and do all kinds of things that today are considered sins, in the interest of saving your life; if, that is, you had no other choice.
If a god would condemn you for that, A. I don't think he loves you, and B. I don't want to follow him even if he does exist. A person or deity who lives, and expects his followers to live, under such backward and faulse teachings, does not deserve to be worshipped; they deserved to be overthrown and condemned to their own prisons. In this case, that would be hell.
Morals, especially those in the bible, are a construction of society. If you introduced those teachings to a cave man, they'd laugh in your face, then stab you with a spear and steal your food and clothing. Why would they do that you ask, because you have them, and he wants them. You have clothes, he has a spear, he wins.
That is why, when the europeans took over the western world, they first introduced morals in the form of christianity. This was mostly to control the population. Teach a society that they can't kill you, and if they don't tey'll reach a paradise place where no aligators will eat them, and they won't kill you. Ever noticed the bible has a lot of teachings about a servant being obedient to their masters? That's so servant don't rebel against you. That is why the church has long been in power, because it taught to not rebel.
The ironic thing is, if you look at history, the people who have the least morals, have been the churches. Christians killed enough muslims in the crusades, to make a mosque flow ankle deep with their blood. Where was, "thou shalt not kill" then? I think, "thou shalt not slaughter" would have been a bit better.
In the spanish inquizzition, people were burned and tortured because they were jewish, homosexual, or because they had simply been accused of being a devil worshipper. women were burned at the stake because they dared to be educated. All in the name of a god who preaches kindness and caring, but that only extends to the weak. The strong, AKA the church, can do whatever they bloody please.
If you can say, "I'm a christian, I know what my church has done, and I'm fine with that", then your a maniac, and I'm not coming anywhere near you.
Amen. Praise Cody! Lol
Silver Lightning, you always give me a lot to think about, and a lot to respond to.
I believe the clause about a crime being necessary has more to do with hurting one individual to save others, but that really isn’t the issue. I think you should probably watch the news a bit more, because people are prosecuted all the time, claiming poverty as a reason for their crimes. Maybe in other countries the starving father excuse would work, I don’t know, but in the U.S. there are enough programs to prevent hunger and such that stealing isn’t really necessary. People may still do it, but it’s not necessary. Regardless, we’re not really discussing the legal system, or programs to help the needy. Before you lecture me about these things though, let me tell you that I have worked for both the legal system here in Texas, and also with assistance programs. I’m not saying either is perfect, but there is help to those in need.
Also, you made a comment about my morals being shallow if I only knew right and wrong because of what was found in a book. You then turn around in the very next sentence and say that the basis for your morals can be found in the works of John Locke. Do you not see some irony in this? Can I not say the same to you about having shallow morals if your morals come out of a book?
OK, now let me see if I understand what you are saying about living in society verses living in the wild. In society, we should get along because it is beneficial for all to do so. In the wild however, it’s survival of the fittest, and the strongest will survive. If this is the case, how did societies ever form? If it’s survival of the fittest, and as you say, you’d shoot anyone taking your food after a holocaust, then societies would never have formed. At some point, some group of people had to say that instead of just watching out for themselves, they were willing to share with those who had less. Why did they decide to do this? On what basis did this group of people decide to forma society? Why not just stay with the strongest taking what they wanted? There has to be more, because according to what you wrote, there would be nothing but anarchy if man was left to his own volition.
Oh, by the way, you keep talking about what the bible says, but you really don’t have an understanding of it. You can say you do, and may even think you do, but what you said about the Ten Commandments backs up what I am saying. The ten commandments are laws that we should strive for, not things that we are going to be able to do in every case. God knew we were not capable of living these perfect lives. That is why in the Old Testament, there was a sacrificial system; where animals were used to pay for not living holy lives. In the New Testament, Jesus paid the ultimate sacrifice for each of our sins.
Also, the bible does tell servants to be obedient to their master. However, you managed to overlook the sections that tell masters to treat their servants properly.
So, though I know you don’t believe this, and you can go on about how you’d rather be an atheist, and that’s fine. However, I’m not quoting John Locke because I haven’t read his work enough to say I have a proper understanding of it, and I suggest you do the same with the bible. What you think it says, and what it does say, seems to be two different things.
Wow, ok, I'm surprised I'm having to answer something this obvious but ok. A society is formed when a lot of people realize, "hey, thirty people, is a lot stronger than one person, so even if I'm weaker than this other person, I'll have twenty-nine people behind me to back me up, thus I'm not weaker". Society forms a single unit, that means that the society becomes the individual. When you have more than one society, they again revert back to the survival of the fittest structure, that is called war, I'm sure you've heard ot it. Seriously, that should have been obvious, its simple math, thirty, is greater than one.
Now then, if the ten commandments are goals for you to strive for, why aren't they called the ten goals for you to strive for? Why does it say that god lays down these ten commandments, and why wasit a punishable offense to break one of them? That isn't a goal, that's a lw, which you should know, as you've worked with law.
I said my basis for morals, I did not say my moral code. You take the bible, and it is the basis for everything you believe in, if it isn't in the bible, you don't consider it. I take john locke's idea, and apply it to my life, I reject what doesn't fit, and keep what does, I change it, adapt it and make it my own, that is what a basis is. It is a base from which you work, it is not the be all and end all.
If you want to use the bible as a basis, that's fine, its idiotic because the bible is one of the most morally twisted books ever writtne, but still, your choice, but that isn't what your doing. Your making it the be all and end all of your entire believe system, you believe in the bible. I do not believe in john locke's work as a gospil, just as a smart bit of writing that should be listened to. that doesn't make him a mesiah, and it doesn't make me go out and force others to believe as I do, it just means I like his work, and it makes sense.
Lastly, before you say someone doesn't understand something, you should know exactly what they've gone through in their life. I've been through all the indoctinations of the church, been baptized twice, gone to more camps, retreats, and studies than I care to count. I've read the bible in three languages, study the histories of the bible going all the way back before the gospils were named, read the gospils that were kept out of the bible, read as much of the dead sea scrolls as I could, even read the epics that the bible were taken from. Now tell me I don't know about the bible. I'd be surprised if you've read more than the king jame's version of the bible, at most you might have read the popular three works, the ones that aren't even more than a century to a century and a half old. Do you even know the history of the version your reading, or why it was written the way it was? You think they're all just the same book with different words? Do you know that many popular versions nowadays keep stories out because the person who wants them written doesn't think those stories are good for christians to be reading?
How can you sit there and criticize me for not knowing the bible, when everything you've said in this entire post speaks to a blind faith. Have you ever questioned anything in your life, ever gone to differenc churches, and no, I don't mean visiting the baptist church down the street.
I've dealt with types like you all my life, the ones who sit in the exact same pew every day and scream "praise jesus" thinking it'll win them into heaven, and never even think to question what in the world they being taught. And you sit there and dare to say I don't understand the bible, simply because I don't agree with your exact belief. Now tell me your not shoving your religion down other peoples throats, if you can lie that boldly.
I don't recall the exact passages, but I'm pretty sure the bible also says that the earth is flat, has four corners, and that the sun revolves around the earth. We all know that this not the case. So much for the infallible word of god, huh?
There's a difference between looking at something in a book and saying, "Oh look. there's a good point. I'll remember that", and using a book as a guide to the way you live your life in general. There are some things in the bible I agree with whole heartedly, but I'm agreeing with what's written; not who wrote it, and certainly not the book it was written in.
Call them what you like: commandments, golden rules, goals to strive for; no matter the title, the following words won't change.
Sin is only punishable if one is not saved. And when God tells his children not to sin, he means that we should not practice sin.
I know that quite a chunk of text is missing from the Bible. While I believe that all of the Bible is God's word, I don't believe that the Bible is all of God's word. In other words, the entire Bible is God's word, but the Bible is not God's word in its entirety.
As for the confusion about antiquated beliefs being stated in the Bible, I did some research and found these passages.
If you still choose to view such verses literally, here's another perspective to look at.
Joshua 10
12 Then Joshua spoke to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel:
"Sun, stand still over Gibeon;
And moon in the Valley of Aijalon."
13 So the sun stood still,
And the moon stopped,
Till the people had revenge
Upon their enemies.
Is this not written in the Book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of Heaven, and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day.
If you can only see this in a literal sense, I suppose I could see how this verse implies that the sun revolves around the Earth.
My understanding of this verse is that the LORD stopped progression of the day, time if you like, in this particular place until Israel was done with the Amorites.
Revelation 7: 1
After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree.
Basically, the wind was stopped from blowing in any of the four directions: north, south, east, and west.
So why doesn't it plainly say north, south, east and west? Then again, using the word "corners" would seem to mean, northeast, northwest, southeast, southwest.
Alright, since we're getting into quotations, here we go:
◦“It is [God] who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to live in.” — Isa. 40:22
◦“God has [created the Earth as] a circle on the face of the [chaos] waters [between the Earth and outer space], at the boundary between light and darkness.” — Job 26:10
◦“God shakes the earth out of its place, and its pillars tremble.” — Job 9:6
◦“When the earth totters, with all its inhabitants, it is I [God] who keep its pillars steady.” — Psalm 75:3
◦“And God said, ‘Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters [of Earth] from the [chaos] waters [of outer space].’” — Genesis 1:6
◦“Again, on the second day, you created the spirit of the firmament, and commanded it to divide and separate the waters, so that one part might move upward and the other part remain beneath.” — 2 Esdras 6:41
remember what I said about slavery earlier. To which I'd like to remind you you said that servants were supposed to be treated nicely, remember that, nicely.
Exodus 21:1 “These are the laws you are to set before them:
Hebrew Servants
2 “If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. 3 If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free.
5 “But if the servant declares, ‘I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,’ 6 then his master must take him before the judges. He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.
7 “If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do. 8 If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself, he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. 9 If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter. 10 If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. 11 If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money.
…
20 “If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, 21 but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.
Now yes, some of these verses sound nice, getting let go after seven years, getting food and clothing, but, if you read it carefully, that is only for jews. Gentiles get none of those, they are slaves for life. If your master wants to beat the hell out of you with a rod, he can, as long as he doesn't kill you. As if the fact that slavery is actually encouraged in the bible isn't good enough in the first place. If you think that's a good set up, I have a house that could use a good cleaning.
Oh and lets not forget that these verses, are the verse right after the ten commandments, so if you want to say they're just obscure verses, I fail to see how you could get more important without them being the ten commandments.
Now you'll probably say, "but that's just mosaic law, its not set down by god for us". To which I say, you take the bible as the word of god, that word is a whole, "the bible". If you want to take only the new testament, then do that, and we'll fight that battle later, the new testament is just as messed up. But that isn't what you do, you say "the bible", which means the entire thing, you can't say that parts of it are the word of god when they're all good and stuffed with vanilla filling, and say its the word of us crackpot unbelievers when suddenly god starts looking like an ass.
If you don't think god looks like an ass in this verse, lets beat you with a rod until your in a coma for a couple days, and see what word you choose to use.
Oh, and in case you didn't understand those first verses. Let me put it this way, imagine a plate, sitting on top of four pillars, with a metal strainer upside down on top of it. That's what the bible world looks like, a fact that not even the churches believe anymore. Remember back when you were learning about christopher columbus, and you giggled at the thought that the world was flat, well where do you think that idea came from? It wasn't just made up, it came frm the bible. The world had been proven round thousands of years before, but the church said it was flat because the bible said so, and what the church says goes.
Again, you give me a lot to respond to…
Let me start again by saying that you tend to say one thing, but then do another. You say I shouldn’t say something about your understanding of the bible without knowing your background, then turn around and accuse me of the same thing without having a clue about my background. You seem to be an intelligent young man, but the key there is young. I’ve got you by over 20 years, which means I have had not only 20 years of life experience that you’ve yet to have, but also 20 extra years of time for formal and informal education. I’ll lay my education, again formal and informal, against yours if you really want to get into that kind of contest. I was trying to avoid that, but we can go there. The points I said about you not understanding the bible still hold. You may read it, but still not understand it, as with the examples I gave you. There is a difference between figurative and literal language, and I’m not talking interpretation here, and some of what you listed was figurative, but that also is a whole other discussion.
You made a statement about how what the church said went. I believe I covered this in another section here, but I’ll say again, there is a difference between what God says and the way man puts it into action. Any words can be taken and misused. I could take the words of John Locke that you used and justify my doing whatever I needed to protect me and what I have, a vigilante-type mindset. I don’t imagine that’s exactly what Locke was saying though, so just because I misuse what he wrote doesn’t mean his words actually held that meaning.
Next, I never called you, or anyone else, a crackpot unbeliever. I’ve been very respectful to the people who don’t believe as I do, but I don’t think the same can be said for me, or those who believe as me. You may say that I just can’t take disagreement, but that is not so. I believe that there is a way of presenting opposing ideas without insulting others.
By the way, I don’t think God looks like an ass, and I would be very careful about then threatening me with a beating because I don’t. I thought this was Safe Haven. You’ll then say, I didn’t really mean it, it was figurative. However, as you say that the bible verses have meaning, then I guess your words have meaning to.
If you really think I threatened you with a beating, you need to take those years of "formal education" and redo them, with an emphasis on reading comprehension. I said, if you think that beating someone with a rod is not cruel, then lets see you go through it and still have the same outcome. And no, that is not a direct quote, its paraphrasing.
So, lets break down what your saying about figurative and literal language. Your right, there is a difference, but you can't say that you took what I said, and made it figurative, that's my choice. If I say "I had a cow", that is figurative, whether you believe it to be figurative or not, makes absolutely no difference to the actual words. If I say, "I had eggs for breakfast", that is literal, I actually did have eggs for breakfast, if you take this as some kind of pun, it does not actually make it a pun, it just means you think it is. Basically, the point is, your opinion doesn't matter, it doesn't change what the words say.
Christians commonly claim, "Oh well its figurative, this is just a story". Now first of all, as I just pointed out, you can't make something figurative unless you say it. You also can't say a figurative something is truth. Again, if I say I "had a cow", and I was not in possession of such an animal, it would be literal. If you were to then go and tell your friends, "Cody has a pet cow", your words would then be false because you took something that was figurative, and translated it as truth; its still not truth, no matter how firmly you believe in it.
Now, lets just say that your correct, and this is a figurative story. What your saying is that the burning bush story isn't actually real, its just a story, made up to prove a point. But that means that the ten commandments aren't real, they're made up too. And, because the ten commandments are later repeated by the guy named jesus, that means jesus was making stuff up too, or repeating made up stuff that he'd heard in a temple somewhere. Either way, ten commandments are made up. Now, since the entire idea of christianity, as far as the way your supposed to act, stem from the ten commandments, that means that the entire basis for the behavior system of christianity, is made up, AKA it doesn't exist, AKA its not real, AKA half your religion is not real.
Now, since we're still assuming that your right, which is probably pretty foolish of us by this point, since half of your religion, the one that tells you how to act, is not real, the other half begins to be questioned. That is the half that says you must worship god, be faithful to him, and that he sent his one and only son to die for your sins so you could have a hope of getting into heaven. Now that we're questioning that, we notice that we just found out that jesus was spouting some made up stuff when he repeated the ten commandments, and since that is the basis of our religion, everything else he says is now in question. Except, that is, the parables, because we know those are made up, he says they're made up, they're meant to serve a purpose.
Now that we're questioning jesus, and since we have no way of actually proving what is truth and what isn't. And don't say, "Well god said it was true, so it is", because remember, god was in the burning bush, so he lies too. So now, half our belief system is crumbled, and the other, which was leaning on it, is starting to totter, you add some time in there, and eventually that will fall too. Probably around the same time you realize that god doesn't actually cause storms, heat and moisture do.
So thank you, you just proved by that one little word, figuratively, that your entire belief system is made up; I'm glad I didn't have to do any work on this. And your now going to spout some new made up stuff that will actually do absolutely nothing to disprove my arguments, just claim how your right and I'm wrong because you have some mystical understanding that I don't. But tell me this, if you have to know it to understand it, and you can't understand it without knowing it, how do you know or understand it. If someone tried to teach you something you couldn't possibly know or understand, they'd never succeed. Basically, you have to buy into it, then force yourself to accept it without question. Welcome to blind faith.
And one last thing. Yes, this is the safe haven boards, but you brought your views into public and opened them up to be scrutinized, now you can't take it. Now, there are a few things you can do to fix this problem, one, be more secure in your faith and not worry about what people say, two, open your mind up to the fact that you might actually be wrong, and then it might not hurt so badly, and lastly, and this is my favorite one, shut up, keep your beliefs to yourself, and don't wine if you can't manage to do that. If you put something in public, prepare to have it laughed at, if you can't, keep it to yourself.
Cody hit the nail on the head. People stick their chests out and claim they're so secure in their 'faith' and so sure of themselves, giving the impression that they can take whatever you throw at them. But when someone comes along and makes a jest of their beliefs, it's "waaaah!! Waaah!! You're attacking me!" And they show their true colors. They don't want to think about the possibility that they might be wrong, they're scared to death of that possibility. If you were truly secure in your beliefs, you would let such criticisms roll off your back and ignore them.
And if you were truly secure in what you believe, you’d just let us go on, and not feel the need to let us know we are wrong. You’d let us continue in our ignorant bliss, but for some reason, you feel compeled to prove something. Now my question is, prove to whom? It’s not working on me, as my arguments aren’t working on you. This topic was started as a reason why we as Christians believe and do, not a why atheists oppose us board. You say I’m not secure in my beliefs because I’m defending what I believe when you are doing the exact same thing.
I don't feel the need to defend my atheism. If someone asks about it, I'll gladly explain. If they want to laugh and poke fun at it, fine. screw 'em. I leave them behind and move on, and that's that. I'm not gonna whine like a baby when their blanky gets taken away.
The problem with your statement that this board was created as a why christians do things is, your not explaining why christians do things. You keep saying, we do it because of this, and we go, ok, but see this doesn't make any sense. If you look back, it started out rather polite, then you started saying, "your attacking me, your attacking me", so we said, "we're not really attacking you, we're just asking you questions you aren't able to answer". After that, you started making claims like, "Well you just can't understand because your not saved like us", and snobbery like that usually gets you cut back down by someone who has the backbone not to stand up to it. Now we're not letting you get away with it, and you can't take it. The point of the matter is, you put your beliefs out here, you didn't have to, none of us asked you to. I'm sure if you asked any of us how much we actually cared, we'd probably say somewhere between zero and negative one. The point of these boards is to discuss things. You put out an idea, we respond, you lob the ball back over the net at us, and the game goes on and on and on. Now your wining because we're hitting you with a backhand you can't handle. The ironic thing is your doing it only a handful of posts after you bragged about your age and education experience, I guess they don't teach you not to invite what you can't handle.
If you want to have a board where no one responds to you, you won't find it on this site.
Am I going to appologize for hurting your feelings, absolutely not, its your fault. Have the opinions of either oen of us changed, not in the slightest. Did I expect them too, again, not in the slightest.
I am not foolish enough to think that a board post will change the beliefs you've never wanted to dig yourself out of for your entire life. I may be able to write down some thoughts, but I don't even think thoreau or shakespeare could do that, and I'm certainly not them.
What exactly were you expecting to happen when you posted this anyway? Did you think all the people who responded on the other board, to which you were responding when you posted this, would just go, "Oh, well that's nice, I wonder if I can get some coffee". Of course we're not going to do that, you tossed out a line, we bit, you fell in the water.
What is it with me and sports analogies.
Wow... just wow...
To be very frank, I think this board has degenerated, as Cody said. It began as a civilized discussion, and then over the last 10-15 posts has been reduced primarily to name-calling and wingeing on both sides of this argument.
While much of value has been contributed on several angles of each side, comments such as "you don't know what you're talking about because you're 20 years younger" and "I don't whine like a baby with my blankie being taken away" (both paraphrases) are hardly condusive to polite discourse.
All this to say... no one is going to change anyone's mind, on either side. Christians believe athists need an explanation for what they believe and why; atheists believe Christians are believing a lie. And around and around we go.
Kate
I feel the need to make a few comments in here.
First I want to start by saying I was a christian for 10 years, I even wanted to become a pastor, now I'm an atheist, So I know both sides of the coin here.
Glenja the problem that we have is not that you're a christian, honestly we couldn't care less. The problem arises when people try and force their "faith" on other people. christians do this by trying to pass laws so atheists can't hold a public office, or trying to force our schools to teach creationism.
If people like us did as you asked and just let the religious alone, then America would become a theocracy.
All of this reminds me of a political cartoon I saw once:
The first panel was of a christian bashing someone for not being a christian, the text was similar to the christian telling the person they were going to hell and berating this person. the second panel was the non-believer grabbing the christians cross and breaking it out of anger. the christian started whining about religious intolerance.
This is exactly what I see christians doing all the time. We non believers, and those who are not christians have dealt with this holier then thou attitude from christians for far too long. Now we have the freedom and the numbers to really ask the tough questions to you and christians are now whining about it, which is what your doing in here. No one has attacked you in anyway, but you percieve it as such because your mind can't deal with the questions being posed to you.
Glenja You know very well that you posted this thread to defend your beliefs. Why else would you need to post it if your weren't defending something.
I would think if you really didn't need to defend your beliefs then this thread would not exist at all.
I ask these honest questions of christians, not to inflame, and not to start drama, but because i'm truely curious.
1. How does one justify and more importantly accept the blatent inconsistancies and contradictions in the bible? Reading the bible, and many other sources that take a look at it, its clear that like it or not, even some of the most fundamental principles of the religion are represented differently from book to book, much less page to page.
2. Does knoledge of the above ever shake your perceptions of the religion, and your faith in its guiding principles?
3. When so many things are different, how is the common practice of excluding some parts of the bibles phraizing or details for the sake of, or in place of others classified as actually being true to the Lord?
4. How does one know what to actually believe with so many different versions of the bible in existance? If you're following these procedures to insure you don't land your self in some firey hell, how can you be sure you've picked the correct ones at all?If you're unknowingly following the wrong version of the bible/religion are you equally as likely to be as a jew or boodist or muzlem or so on and so on who has made no attempt at following the path of the lord? If so, why, what support backs your claim?
5. Why is god allowed to do things that at the verry least contradict his teachings, but more so are extremely synfull?
If you want spasific examples, I will deliver them, though to be honest, I left them out so the actual subject matter of the questions could be evaluated rather than this becoming a stage show of fighting each spasific example only to get nowhere.
in 4, the missing word is condemned, sorry, I didn't have much time to write this all out.
Well put, James and Cody!
I really didn’t intend this board to be anything but an answer to some questions. It has turned into a debate, and maybe I was naive, but I didn’t expect this. I believe what I believe, and as I originally wrote, wasn’t trying to convince anyone else of anything. At this time, I don’t think I’m going to post anymore on this particular board, even though I started it. I’m not running from hard questions, or pouting and taking my toys home, though I’m sure some will think so. I just think that we’re at a point on this board where it’s not being productive for anyone, and it is very far from what I originally intended.
There have been questions asked here, and I have been told that I don’t answer them. I think Dracula’s post best illustrates my hesitancy. He wrote that he didn’t care that I was a Christian, then immediately starts talking about how we Christians force our views on others. If I answer a question, I’m a bible thumper. If I don’t, I’m avoiding penetrating questions.
For me, I think the best way to handle this situation is to move it off of this board. If anyone has questions, such as those proposed by Striker, and if you want my opinion, then please send me a private message.
Thank you to all who have posted.
I'd definitely say you're taking the easy way out; while it's your choice, I gotta say if you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen.
you were very naive to think this would actually be a Q&A topic; if you intended it to be such, you should've titled it accordingly.
just my two cents, for whatever it's worth.
back off. oops I guess he did that already. he is taking time to think or he has gone dry to reply all those questions, I say.
Raaj.
Glenja you are using my post which was worded so anyone could understand that christians use the law and the school system to force their views. seriously if you thought any different then maybe you need better reading comprehension skills, cuz thats just sad.
So, I ask questions i'm seriously curious about, but i'm ignored? I thought this was a board for education and understanding, but I've been clearly let down. As i've previously stated, I asked what I did only to gain a sense of understanding, but hey... guess i'll never know, unless I take it to a better forum for that kind of thing.